Aside from worrying about the children, where the family will live after relationship breakdown is the second biggest worry people have.  Being proactive, understanding all options and taking control of this issue quickly can help alleviate those fears and may even accelerate resolving the legal aspect of the case.   

Useful links:

Welcome to The Mortgage Shop

About Confidante and Co – the podcast series 

Clients often believe that they are resigned to the legal or court process when they are facing a separation or divorce but this is not necessarily the case.  What clients don’t always appreciate is that they have more control that they think and as long as both parties agree, they can bespoke their journey by using other services to complement the legal process.  Counselling can be used to promote a more amicable separation, Mediation can be used to help deal with issues in dispute, and there are resources and experts available to help parents co-parent better/well.   

By engaging the help of other services or resources, the cost and time it will take to navigate the legal process may be significantly reduced and there is an increased chance of keeping relationships intact.  

With that in mind, Carly James was eager to invite guests onto the series to give couples experiencing relationship breakdown a deeper insight into how their respective services can help.  We tackle common questions, debunk some myths and aim to educate listeners so they can make fully informed decisions about whether or not to engage such services.  

Whilst Carly chips in along the way with a legal perspective if she thinks it is helpful to do so, the podcast is not designed to tackle the legal process, instead it focuses on the holistic and practical side to relationship breakdown.  

Carly believes that the more couples make use of the other services available to them, the less traumatic the experience will be.    

You can find out more about Confidante here: A New Perspective on Family Law in Jersey - Confidante

Confidante and Co Episode 4 – Transcript

0:00  
This is Confidante and Co with Carly James - new perspectives on family law. 

0:06  
Carly James: Welcome to the fourth episode in a four-part podcast series called Confidante and Co. I'm Carly James - family lawyer and founder of Confidante, a law firm which specialises in helping people with a family law issues such as divorce, separation, and children disputes. 

The inspiration to record this podcast derived from a desire to showcase to people experiencing relationship breakdown, what other services and resources there are available to them beyond the legal process, which can help them to take control of their present and therefore their future. I've tackled in Episode Three, the greatest worries parents have when they're thinking about bringing relationship to an end is the impact that may have on children. 

But the second biggest fear is: how will the finances be divided? And where will they let a lawyer can help someone work out the finances and how they should be divided. But one of the factors they will look at is the financial resources available to each party. And that includes borrowing hence their mortgage capacity. In most divorces, one, if not, both of the parties will need to use their borrowing capacity to make way for both parties to be able to rehab themselves after the divorce, and what they can borrow is a key piece of the jigsaw. Unfortunately, sometimes people are reluctant to gather this key information which can delay resolving the case. But it really is vital. And therefore, I wanted to create a podcast to deal with mortgages, to help people understand their options, what is required of them, and how easy it is to get this information which could unlock their case. 

So, who better to invite to this podcast than the oracle himself, Peter Seymour of the Mortgage Shop?

Welcome, Peter. And thank you for joining me on the podcast

1:50
Peter Seymour: My pleasure. Thank You.

1:52  
Carly James: I thought we would tackle the podcast by breaking it down into four sections: keeping the matrimonial home and discussing whether that's possible; selling the matrimonial home; purchasing a new property, and then dealing more specifically with questions relating to the legal process. 

Peter, a typical situation is that one of the parties wants to retain the former matrimonial home. And sometimes this is possible, and sometimes it isn't. In a situation where one of the parties does want to keep the matrimonial home but can't afford to take the mortgage, the joint mortgage into their full name, is it possible to keep the mortgage?

2:35  
Peter Seymour: Yes, it is. And this is something which quite frequently happens, although I understand there are other implications in respect of the financial settlement, which might tend to blow this at times.

2:47  
Carly James: And how does that impact on the party whose name is going to remain on the joint mortgage, but they're not going to be living in the property?

2:55  
Peter Seymour: Well, the problem is that they will probably struggle to have sufficient spare cash available to be able to satisfy lending criteria if they want a mortgage. And the other problem is where they're going to get the deposit from, which would normally come from the disposal of that marital home.

3:11  
Carly James: I suppose unless the person who's keeping their name on the mortgage, unless they're able to buy another property outright from other funds, or from borrowing from family, remaining on the joint mortgage is going to hamper their ability to buy another property. And so that might not be a suitable outcome. That's correct. And if someone can afford to take the joint mortgage into their sole name, but there wasn't enough cash or other assets to fairly affect settlement, could they increase the borrowing against their former matrimonial home to release some cash to give to the other party?

3:49  
Peter Seymour: That is possible be subject to the maximum loan to value of say 90% not being breached, and down to affordability criteria being was satisfied in relation to the other lenders are looking for

4:03  
Carly James: And what would a party need to demonstrate or provide to the mortgage providers for that to happen?

4:10  
Peter Seymour: A complete application - which will include three months’ bank statements, credit card statements, proof of address, passports, tax information for the last three years, details of any debts, statements from the existing mortgage provider to confirm satisfactory funding of the mortgage, and we need to touch upon that, again, just very important, satisfactory funding of the mortgage.

4:34  
This is Confidante and Co with Carly James

4:37  
Carly James: So I suppose keeping the matrimonial home is possible in the following scenarios: if there's just generally enough money to go around so that one of the parties can keep the property and potentially pay off the mortgage; or if there's not enough money to pay off the joint mortgage and both parties names remain on the mortgage and the other party is able to buy outright from other funds, or if the joint mortgage is transferred into one of the party’s sole names, and that's going to be down to whether that's affordable for them; or if it's going to be transferred into one of the party's sole names and they could potentially borrow some more money against the property to release cash to effect settlement. 

5:19 
Peter Seymour: Yes.

5:21  
Carly James: Peter, moving on to selling the former matrimonial home, sometimes it's not possible to retain the matrimonial home or sometimes it's not desirable to keep the matrimonial home. So, in that scenario, if the property is going to be sold, and there is a joint mortgage, the options presumably would be to either pay off the mortgage from the sale proceeds, or to port the joint mortgage onto another property. In a porting scenario, is it possible to port a joint mortgage into one of the party’s sole names?

5:54  
Peter Seymour: Yes, we do this all the time. Frequently however, the borrowing capacity of the single individual is insufficient to match the expectations of lenders in relation to the entire mortgage. And so, if there is £400,000 outstanding on the mortgage, and they only need £250,000 or £300,000, then they can put that amount, the balance then must be repaid to the lender. And the borrowers must suffer an early repayment penalty because all mortgages these days are locked into fixed rates or tracker rates, most of which, in fact, carry quite high early repayment penalties, which can be up to 5%.

6:29  
Carly James: I hadn't appreciated that was the case with tracker mortgages. What would be the benefit of porting the mortgage - why would a party choose to port the mortgage instead of paying off the joint mortgage and then taking out a new mortgage in their sole name? 

6:44  
Peter Seymour: Well, the most significant saving is going to be the early repayment charge. What that has to be balanced against is if that mortgage has been running for two or three years, it will carry a historically high rate of interest, which could be half that under in the current climate, the kind of lending climate where rates have plummeted, so one's got to balance the two against each other-  is the cost of paying the penalty worth paying or is it better to dump it, pay the penalty and then take on another mortgage at a much lower rate of interest.

7:16  
Carly James: So important to investigate both options because it could have a serious impact on your repayments monthly. And what would the party wishing to port the mortgage need to provide to the mortgage lender? Is it the same information as applying for new mortgage?

7:25
Peter Seymour: Yes

7:33  
Carly James: And how long does the party have to port the mortgage? Because it's sometimes the case that the matrimonial home is sold, but that party hasn't found somewhere else to live. So, can they port the mortgage at a future date?

7:45  
Peter Seymour: Upon selling the former matrimonial home, the full penalty is paid to the lenders, and you are then given three months’ grace in which to find another property, take on the mortgage - or a portion of the mortgage - to the property and then the repayment charge will be refunded.

8:02  
Carly James: That's helpful. What happens to the repayments in the interim - do they fall dormant?

8:02
Peter Seymour: Yes, dormant in that intervening period. 

8:05
Carly James: Peter, moving on to buying a new property. If one, or both, of the parties wishes to buy a property, the first thing they'll need to do - if there isn't enough money to buy outright - is ascertain what their borrowing capacity is, and then they'll need to work out what mortgage product is most suitable for them. 

Often what happens when clients come to see me is that they've filled in an online mortgage calculator, usually with the bank that they bank with. And once they've worked out what they can borrow, they're catapulted onto a page which has a plethora of mortgage products available to them. And at that point, they get very confused. 

So, can you help us with what the differences are between the main mortgage products available, so fixed, variable and tracker?

8:55  
Peter Seymour: Going back to your initial statement, the problem with going to one lender or going to their own website is you will be directed to their mortgage calculator, which is a gimmick.

It doesn't achieve anything - because you don't know how much you can borrow. You could attempt to assess how much you can borrow, but that really is in the domain of the underwriters who will decide how much you can borrow. 

So, I would establish what you can borrow first before you go near the mortgage calculator. These calculators can be very, very misleading and it happens a lot. 

Now, we have currently standard variable rate, which is a rate which is quoted by all lenders, you should if you are in that rate, then you have not been seeking advice to lock you into fixed rates or you have ignored all from your lender to when your fixed rate comes up review, you've ignored that, and the rate automatically moves onto the standard variable rate. 

But the advice when we're setting up mortgages is - generally speaking - a fixed rate. 

Fixed rates come in a variety of forms - fixed for two, three, five, seven or sometimes even ten years. I believe have seven and ten years are too long – you don't know what life holds for you that far away. 

Normally our clients will lock into a five-year fixed rate. But they've got to be certain that they're not going to either be separating or divorcing or selling up or moving house or whatever. 

There is also a tracker rate, which is linked to the Bank of England base rate, these tracker rates are usually very low indeed. A number of them do not carry a repayment charges, which means that if you have a high enough salary, you can actually benefit from being able to pay down the mortgage debt whenever you receive a bonus or a dividend or something like that. 

So essentially, we're just talking about two different types of moetgages fixed and tracker. 

Tracker is the adventurous or the short-term borrower. And the fixed is for people who are looking for stability in their lives.

10:46  
Carly James: I think for a lot of people who are going through divorce proceedings, working out what's affordable for them monthly going forward is an important exercise. 

So that's where a fixed mortgage might be beneficial because they can plan and know that they can afford in their outgoings.

Just going back to what you said about people who might fill in information online on a bank’s online calculator; it's helpful advice that you shared, because people might even try and rely on that when they're negotiating their case. So important for people to go and speak to somebody properly and find out what they can actually borrow in reality.

11:23  
Peter Seymour: Yes, I agree.

11:24  
New perspectives on family law. This is Confidante and Co - the podcast series from Confidante Law.

11:31  
Carly James: In terms of the amount people can borrow, what are the main factors considered by mortgage lenders?

11:38  
Peter Seymour: Income, basic income. Let’s talk about employees, first. Basic income, and if one has been in a job where one has earned bonuses for the last two years, those bonuses can be considered, sometimes 50%, sometimes 60%, occasionally 100%.

We are also able to consider overtime, sometimes commission – if one was a hairdresser, something like that. Many hairdressers receive 50% of their income in commission. And it represents a very important factor when negotiating with the lender to see how much t, the lender is prepared to take into account this for employees for self-employed, then we use an average of the last two years drawings from the company. 

But on top of that, what most people don't realise is that if there are any retained profits, which are carried forward from one year to the next, we can use 100% of the average of the last two years’ paying profits, which can make a significant difference. 

Many people - advised by their accountants for tax reasons - will draw a basic income and will bank the rest of their profits in the company and can do so for years on end, and you see it’s accumulating year on year. And we can take that into account as well.

12:49  
Carly James: That's helpful. And often people going through divorce proceedings, they may decide that tactically it's advantageous for them, although it isn't, advantageous for them not to draw significantly from the business and to leave some undrawn dividend in the business. So it's helpful to know that actually that will be captured potentially in a mortgage application. 

And Peter, what if someone doesn't have permanent employment, or they are working through a probation period?

13:17  
Peter Seymour: Zero-hour contracts are viewed with great suspicion by all lenders. 

However, somebody who's been in a zero-hour contract for two, three or four years will be treated by most lenders as if they are fully employed.

13:31  
Carly James: And what about somebody who's going through a probation period because, again, what's often applicable in a divorce case is that you may have somebody who's been out of the workplace, and they need to get back to work to be able to get a borrowing capacity and have an income, or someone might change employment partway through the divorce proceedings to increase their income, and again, increase their borrowing capacity. So they may be in a probation period. And sometimes people's probation periods can last for as long as six months. So how would that be treated in a mortgage application?

14:03  
Peter Seymour: Well, if that individual is moving from a manager role in a Trust Company, to be a manager in another Trust company, the period of probation can usually be overlooked completely by some lenders, not all, but some of them. 

If they're moving into a completely new job, not having worked, perhaps after having bringing children up for the last couple of years, then that probationary period will probably have to be worked in full, although what a lot of employers will do. I'm sure you'll agree that once you've been working in a particular job for a couple of weeks, or you've employed somebody in a job for a couple weeks, you know whether you're going to keep them or not. And frequently, employers will be sympathetic to the cause, and will maybe reduce the probationary period from three months to maybe one and a half, or two months, often six months down to three or two – something like that. There's a lot of flexibility.

14:50  
Carly James: That's a really good suggestion and something that people should think about if they're going through divorce proceedings. 

There's no harm asking an employer, and as you say, I think employers would generally be sympathetic. If that meant that somebody could buy rather than having to move into the rental market, which will just eat capital, then I think employers would be prepared to consider that. 

And a common question is: how do mortgage providers treat child and/or spousal maintenance? And how can this be woven into an approval in principle application if the amount is unknown, so often before we get to the end of the case, we need the information in respect to someone's borrowing capacity, but we may not have worked out what child or spousal maintenance looks like. So how do you deal with that if you have someone coming to you asking that question?

15:40  
Peter Seymour: Well, one needs to know what the maintenance is going to be to calculate or assess how much a person can borrow. So what we recommend is you work it round the other way, and say, this is what the maintenance split’s going to be - for you to be able to afford to sustain the existing mortgage, or take on a new mortgage.

15:55  
Carly James: And is child maintenance something that can be taken into account?

15:59  
Peter Seymour: Yes, but we must be very careful here. Because if there's child maintenance on children over the age of ten, eleven or twelve that frequently would not be considered at all. 

16:08
Carly James: That's interesting. Why is that? 

16:11  
Peter Seymour: Because those children will be leaving school at sixteen, seventeen or eighteen.  And there's insufficient cash or funds there to satisfy lenders’ expectations. If the child maintenance is on a couple of children aged two, three four or five, then it can be taken into account as part of the total.

16:26  
Carly James: What documentation will someone need to provide typically, if they're looking to take out a mortgage? 

16:32  
Peter Seymour: Every piece of paper known to man!

We have an application form, we have KYC, which is the standard identification.  Social security cards, proof of address, three months’ bank statements, three months’ credit card statements, two, possibly three years of tax assessments. That's a difficult one because sadly, the income tax department is in a little bit of a chaotic state now and getting a tax assessment out of them is difficult.  We’d need details of the property people are purchasing and we would need to have confirmation of the deposits. If it's gifted funds from family need to have gift letter or gift letters, we'd have four previous statements from previous mortgages. That's about it to start off with.

17:12  
Carly James: I suppose that impacts on the next question, how long does it take for the application - and I suppose it depends on how organised somebody is in getting all their paperwork together…?

17:22  
Peter Seymour: Pre-pandemic, four to six weeks, from applying for the mortgage to receiving an offer from the lenders. Post-COVID is anybody's guess, can be measured in two to three months now depends entirely on the lender. 

Because any number of lenders -in fact, all lenders - are currently working from home. This slows down the process significantly. Some lenders in Jersey have greatly reduced teams because some of their staff have returned to the UK during COVID. Others have staff off ill with long-term COVID. Now we usually recommend a minimum of eight weeks from start to finish. But that's from applying for the mortgage to getting approval and a mortgage offer. If people are very organised and get all those all those documents together, which we've just identified can be quite difficult, particularly if the family is in chaos.

18:13  
Carly James: So it's really important for people to get organised, get their paperwork together and come to see somebody like you as quickly as possible to get that process in motion, given how long it might take and it will delay inevitably the sale if the sale is due to dovetail with a purchase. So, it's important to get organised and to factor that timescale in. 

18:35  
You're listening to Confidante and Co with Carly James.

18:38  
Carly James: Peter, if we can move on to more specific questions linked to the legal process. 

For negotiations to take place, or for the court to decide in financial proceedings, parties are usually required to provide evidence of their borrowing capacity and likely mortgage repayments. So how can mortgage providers help parties with this?

19:01  
Peter Seymour: We produce an approval in principle document, and this can be waved in front of the legal representatives of the family, and we can take it from there. 

But for us to be able to achieve that, we obviously must have researched - in depth - the finances of all parties involved; and that once again can be difficult, if the parties find it difficult to source some of the documents this will be a problem which we which we encounter.

19:26  
Carly James: So again, important for parties to be organised and not expect to come to you and get that answer quickly. They need to come and speak to you and find out what they need to provide so that you can give them the answer. And how long does that usually take if someone does come to see you with all the information - how long does it take to get an approval in principle?

19:43  
Peter Seymour: Backtracking on that slightly. Frequently we find we are talking to people for six, nine, twelve months before this happens because a lot of people when faced with the prospect of separation or divorce will probably try to backtrack a little bit because it's a very demanding, very difficult part of their lives. So these things do take a very, very long time. And we might have three, four or five meetings with people before we get to the stage where we can give them an approval in principle. 

20:01
Carly James: And if someone’s circumstances haven't changed, they've got an approval in principle, but that's expired, how reliable is that out-of-date approval in principle? Would someone come back to you to get that updated?

20:34  
Peter Seymour: Yes, because we need to make sure and satisfy ourselves that they still tick all the correct boxes. And usually what it involves is maybe three months’ latest payroll slips, and three months’ latest bank statements, not a complete application.

20:47  
Carly James: Peter, we were going to come back to a point. So maybe now is the right time to come back to one of the points you made earlier on.

20:53  
Peter Seymour: Yes, and this is probably the fundamental problem which virtually everybody suffers from when they're separating.

What happens is one of the aggrieved parties will probably storm out of the house and go and live in a flat or go and stay with parents or with a girlfriend or a boyfriend or whatever. 

And there's a mortgage to pay, their credit card debts to satisfy and the mortgage being serviced on a property which will have been the former home, which one of those parties doesn't live in so they adopt the attitude, ‘Why should I bother to pay the mortgage?’ 

They see the credit card bills racking up and say, ‘Why should I be responsible for paying bills, which I'm not involved with?’ It doesn't just happen to certain groups of people, it happens across the board, everybody. We've seen people with very high salaries, who five, six years later still can't get a mortgage because they adopted this attitude. ‘Why should I pay the mortgage when I'm living in the house? Why should I pay the credit card bills when I'm not using a credit card?’ So, they stop payments - and this is the biggest cardinal sin you could possibly dream of committing, because it will mean that your life is going to be destroyed twice over. Not only losing your family and losing your relationship and your marriage, but you’re also losing the ability to be able to purchase property as well. So, it's very, very important thing, which people just don't imagine will affect them. But it does.

22:10  
Carly James: So one of the most important takeaways from today's podcast is: don't let a lapse in judgement or your emotions run away with you or let repayment pass you by or take on additional liabilities that you can't afford, because those short-term decisions can impact on your future for a very long time. 

And Peter because we have you on, and the market is a bit crazy, do you have any predictions as to whether the market and the rise in house prices will slow down anytime soon?

22:40  
Peter Seymour: The market has slowed significantly, because there is insufficient new stock being placed on the market by people wishing to trade up or down. 

And that's probably going to continue because many people who are now staying put rather than moving home to their forever home, are probably looking at those properties and say, well, it doesn't look too bad, we can put an office here and we can build another two bedrooms on and whilst we're about it, let’s spend a bit of money on a new kitchen - things like that. They're spending, maybe, £250,000 on staying put rather than £500,000-£750,000 trading up. So that property in the middle of the market is never going to hit the market again for a very long time. Consequently, the opportunity to find reasonably-priced property in Jersey doesn't exist now which is the problem that first time buyers are finding and particularly people in the category which we're speaking about, they're also going to have terrible problems in finding somewhere.

23:32  
Carly James: So less buying and selling generally, but more demand for the properties on the market, which is making purchasing more difficult.

And we all know that being in a cash position is attractive for sellers, but it's not always practical for buyers. So in that instance, rather than moving into the rental market, I suppose another takeaway from today is, to get your ducks in a row, to be proactive to find out what you can borrow. Get your paperwork together so at least you can be telling sellers that you've got your borrowing in place. 

24:00
Peter Seymour: Yes, organisation is paramount. 

24:05
Carly James: And Peter for anyone going through a relationship breakdown facing an issue with the transfer of a mortgage or applying for a new mortgage - what are your top tips to ensure the most favourable mortgage is secured?

24:17  
Peter Seymour: By talking to a mortgage broker as soon as possible. If that mortgage broker is an honest individual, you can be guaranteed that you will have received the best advice possible and will be offered the lowest possible rates in the market applicable to you. That's all I can suggest. Research is very essential. And you can either do it by wearing out shoe leather traipsing around all the banks -  all you can't get an interview at present because they're all working from home - or talk to a reliable mortgage broker and rely upon them to provide you with the advice that you need.

24:51  
Carly James: And Peter, my last question is for some people, the sale of the former matrimonial home is a devastating prospect. Do you have any advice or words of wisdom from a mortgage broker’s perspective?

25:02  
Peter Seymour: I'm afraid the brutal reality is, that in many cases, the property must be sold, and people must move out and probably have to end up renting accommodation rather than buying again; but anybody who comes to us can rest assured that they will receive honest and straightforward advice. 

I will also research the market intensely to make sure that if we are advising the house must be sold it has to be sold – there are absolutely no other options.

25:30  
Carly James: Very wise words. Thank you very much. And thank you very much for joining me on the podcast.

25:37  
To listen to more from the Confidante and Co series of podcasts visit confidante.law 

Breaking news to the children about a separation is almost always the biggest worry for parents.  In this episode, Christina shares enormously helpful information which parents can implement immediately to help their children deal with changes in the family, whatever stage they are at. Christina provides excellent ideas, tips and great resources for parents and children. 

Useful links:

Christina’s website
SPLIT - more information and trailer
Stream the SPLIT film
SPLIT film website 

About Confidante and Co – the podcast series 

Clients often believe that they are resigned to the legal or court process when they are facing a separation or divorce but this is not necessarily the case.  What clients don’t always appreciate is that they have more control that they think and as long as both parties agree, they can bespoke their journey by using other services to complement the legal process.  Counselling can be used to promote a more amicable separation, Mediation can be used to help deal with issues in dispute, and there are resources and experts available to help parents co-parent better/well.

By engaging the help of other services or resources, the cost and time it will take to navigate the legal process may be significantly reduced and there is an increased chance of keeping relationships intact.  

With that in mind, Carly James was eager to invite guests onto the series to give couples experiencing relationship breakdown a deeper insight into how their respective services can help.  We tackle common questions, debunk some myths and aim to educate listeners so they can make fully informed decisions about whether or not to engage such services.  

Whilst Carly chips in along the way with a legal perspective if she thinks it is helpful to do so, the podcast is not designed to tackle the legal process, instead it focuses on the holistic and practical side to relationship breakdown.  

Carly believes that the more couples make use of the other services available to them, the less traumatic the experience will be.    

You can find out more about Confidante here: A New Perspective on Family Law in Jersey - Confidante

Confidante and Co Episode 3 – Transcript

0:00  
This is Confidante and Co with Carly James - new perspectives on family law. 

0:06  
Carly James: Welcome to the third episode in a four-part podcast series called Confidante and Co. I'm Carly James - family lawyer and founder of Confidante, a law firm which specialises in helping people with family law issues such as divorce, separation, and children disputes. 

The inspiration to record this podcast arrived from a desire to showcase, to people experiencing relationship breakdown, what other services and resources are available to them beyond the legal process. What people often don't appreciate is that these other services and resources can be used to complement the legal process. They can have a myriad of potential benefits, not least to promote better relationships with your former partner or spouse. And obviously, even your children. One of the greatest worries parents have when they are considering the end of a relationship is the impact this may have on their children; parents fear that their divorce will have a detrimental effect on the kids. And this fear can sometimes keep parents in an unhappy relationship. But a change in the family dynamic can be managed carefully and in a way that limits any negative impact on the children. 

And with that in mind, I'm delighted to introduce my third handpicked guest, Christina McGhee, who joins me down the line from Texas to share her wisdom in this area. 

Welcome, Christina. And thank you for joining me on the podcast. 

2:09
Christina McGhee: I'm delighted to be here. 

2:10
Carly James: Christina is an internationally recognised divorce parenting expert, speaker and author. She has spent most of her career educating parents and professionals on how to minimise the impact of divorce on children. And over the years, Christina has featured on television, radio, podcasts, and in print around the USA - and further afield. Christina has even taken part in a BBC documentary, ‘How To Divorce Without Screwing Up Your Kid’. I've watched it – and Christina, it is insightful. And it can be found on YouTube for anyone who's interested. 

Christina, I'd like to break this episode down into four sections: Firstly, to talk a little bit more to you about you and the work you do to deal with the preparation for, and delivery of, the news to children about a change in the family dynamic. How to deal with children in the immediate aftermath and longer term, and how parents can co-parent well. 

A bit more about you, Christina, you are clearly very knowledgeable and experienced in this area. And having read a bit about you, I can see that one of your core beliefs is that divorce doesn't make you a bad parent, rather it makes you a parent going through a bad time. And your passion is to help parents get through that bad time. 

What made you get into this area of work - and what makes you so passionate?

3:09  
Christina McGhee: Like a lot of people in the field, it wasn't in my design to become a divorce coach. 

As a matter of fact, when I started this work, the field wasn't really defined very well. It was a new frontier in many ways. And I got started educating separating parents because there was kind of a collision between my professional life and my personal life.

When I got married, I married a man with two very young children. And I instantly became a ‘bonus mom’. And I had no idea what I was doing! 

So, like any good social worker, I dug in and started doing research that even though I'm a child from a divorced family, I grew up with divorced parents, I didn't really think about the impact of divorce on my life, or really have any great lessons learned about how to guide these children who were going through this or how to make it better. 

I was clear about what I didn't want, but not so clear about what we wanted, or what we could do. And so I set out on this journey. And before I knew it, I was teaching courses for separating parents. And that's kind of where my journey began. From there, it's been a wild ride. I've had all these opportunities to do things in the media and to write a book to educate parents. I also work on training Family Lawyers, and other divorce professionals about how to really approach this from a child-centred perspective.

4:33  
Carly James: A really important area of work. And, I think for a lot of parents, they think that there isn't support out there or they don't know where to go for support. And sometimes parents will come to their lawyer and ask their lawyer and their lawyer can help them to a certain extent, but they're not experts in this field. So, it's great that there are resources out there for parents and I think for some parents, they just don't know where to look in Jersey. 

We've got a great course called ‘Keeping Children In Mind’. And that's run by a centre over here called The Bridge. But it's not running all the time. And it's a group session. And I think that can sometimes put people off. So, it's great to know that there are people who can offer parents on- on-one coaching advice through this really difficult time.

5:21  
Christina McGhee: Sure. And it is hard to know where to turn, you know, because we've got Google, there's a lot of information that's out there, but how do you decide what's a fit for you? And so sometimes looking for help can be just as challenging as the problem you're dealing with, just not knowing where to turn. But I can tell you that the defining difference between families who just get through this, and those that get through it, well, really has to do with information and support. And so as soon as possible in the process, it's helpful for parents to get connected to support. And that can be a coach like myself working one-on-one, it could be a group, it could be an online forum, it could be a book, it could be a course, like you're referring to in Jersey, although I'll say that because of the stigma that divorce carries, there are a lot of parents that are really uncomfortable sitting in a small room in a community where they might know the person across from them talking about their situation. And so sometimes working with someone one-on-one, or getting some remote help, can feel more comfortable, because you've got that kind of space, and you're not so worried about confidentiality, or you know, what you're going to say or how you're going to say it.

6:36  
This is Confidante and Co with Carly James

6:40  
Carly James: Now, dealing specifically with preparing for, and delivering the news to, children. How can parents prepare for that conversation?

6:48  
Christina McGhee: I think the first key issue is parents really need to develop a plan. We don't want to have an impulsive conversation with kids, you really want to think things through. And so, I recommend that parents avoid falling into the extremes. Because in my work with parents, I find that either they get into the trap of saying too much - just overloading kids with lots of information or saying too little and kids get like a two to three sentence description of what's happening in the family. And neither of those approaches really serves kids well. 

So, what you want to do is really think through what do kids need to hear? So before talking, parents sit down, go through the basics, explaining what divorce means. What's going to change? And what's going to stay the same? Think through what are some things that are really going to be important to your kids that you're going to need to address like, how are they going to be spending time with each parent? And when is this big change going to take place? What about the other important people in their life, so addressing those big-ticket items, and I think it's important for parents to realise that having this conversation isn't just hard for kids, it's also hard for parents. And so, you want to make sure that you kind of sort yourself out so that you can responsibly manage your emotions when you're having this conversation with your kids.

8:10  
Carly James: And if you could advise parents to do at least three things to make the delivery as child focused as possible. What would they be? 

8:18  
Christina McGhee: I think the first one is to really think about the timing of the conversation. We want to make sure that we're giving kids some space to take this all on board emotionally. And that doesn't happen quickly. So, while talking about divorce is an ongoing conversation, this first talk is a particularly important conversation. 

You want to make sure that you give your kids some time to take everything in, I recommend a lot of times that parents plan to talk to their kids, like on a Friday, and then not schedule anything for the weekend. Make sure that both parents can be available to the children. So, if kids have questions, or they want to talk about things, because different things are going to come up for them after the news lands, right, they're going to have time to think about it and feelings are going to show up. You want to be available to them. And you don't want them to have the pressure of having to deal with others outside of the family right away. That's a lot. “Oh, we're going to tell you and then let's go to Sally's birthday party”, you know, or “I'm going to drop you off to school” and I have had parents you know, that have told their kids in the car as they're driving to school. And then the kids are left to deal with this big news at a time that's just simply not convenient or helpful. I think timing is really, critical.

9:38  
Carly James: That's a great tip. And it seems so obvious in the cold light of day when we're talking about it. But when parents are emotionally charged judgement can go out the window. And that's why planning this conversation is so important. And you can't undo what you say or how you say it to the children, and this is a conversation they're unlikely to forget. So important to get it right and to plan together as well and deal with the conversation together if you possibly can, for sure.

10:07  
Christina McGhee: …if you can. And to add to that, I would say if you've already had that impulsive conversation with your kids, and you can't unsay what you've already said, I do recommend to parents to consider circling back and have that conversation again. It’s okay to say to kids, “look, when we first talked about this, I was feeling a lot of really strong feelings. And I didn't really show up the way I wanted to, or I didn't really what I wanted to tell you didn't come out the right way. So I want to try this again, here's what I want you to know.” And kids will be very forgiving. I think it also sets a great example for children, that it's okay to make mistakes, that you're not always going to get it 100%, right all of the time. And when you don't, that you can go back and repair or circle back or have that conversation again. So don't feel like there's no hope. If you've said things to kids that you regret, or you wish you'd said differently.

11:04  
Carly James: But better to address it, if you could recognise that you could have done better deal with it and replace the narrative with something more positive, and unexpressed that in a way that you know, after a bit of time has passed is a better way for the children to think about things going forward. One of the tips you gave was to think about timing, what are the two other tips would you give to parents? 

11:25  
Christina McGhee: Well, you want to keep it conflict free. And you want to - as I said before - manage your emotions responsibly. A lot of parents want to know if they should have the conversation together or apart. And I think it's ideal if you can have the conversation together, if you can plan together about how to talk to the kids. But the caveat to that is that you want to keep it tension free. 

So, if there's a lot of strong feelings, or one parent is angry, or very committed to placing blame or not being cooperative, then you might be better off having separate conversations, it's certainly good if you can agree on a narrative so kids are hearing similar messages from each parent. But that's not always possible. And if it's not, then you may need to approach things in a different way. 

Which brings me to my third tip, which is: don't play the blame game.

And that's a hard one, because when those emotions kick in, or you may feel strongly that one parent bears more of the responsibility for the marriage not working than the other. And it can be very tempting to want to lay everything squarely on the other parent’s shoulders. 

But the truth is, is that doesn't help kids heal, and it tends to increase their anxiety and make things more confusing for them. When blaming happens, kids are more likely to feel caught in the middle by trying to decide who they should believe who's right and who's wrong, they might feel really pulled to pick or choose a side, which is not helpful to them. Because moving forward, we want them to have a positive relationship with both parents, or kids also can fall into the trap of feeling like they need to be emotionally responsible for a parent that they may view as the victim or the more vulnerable parent. And when kids are focused on taking care of parents emotionally, they're not paying attention to their own needs. And that is something a theme that can really follow kids throughout their lifetime.

13:24  
Carly James: That's important advice. And I think we cover later the conflict I think a lot of parents face around, not oversharing with their children, but also trying to be honest with them. And that can be something difficult for parents to deal with. But just before we move on to that, Christina, how do you help children who are of different ages? Is it helpful to deal with the children separately? Do you deal with them and sort of briefly cover off what's happened? And then deal with them separately? What would you advise?

13:58  
Christina McGhee: In families where you have children that are different ages, I think the first thing you need to think about is how wide is the gap. If you have really young children and you have older children, it may be important to have a separate conversation. So, you might want to talk with the older children first and break the news and explain to them how life is going to change and then have a family conversation that includes the younger children so that the siblings can support one another. Because, you know, research and study showed that siblings can comfort each other can support each other as they go through this and can be a great source of support. I think that when you can approach it in that way, it kind of sets that dynamic up.

14:43  
Carly James: All right, and back to the honesty point. Parents will want to be honest with their children, but how honest should they be? Where do you draw the line?

14:53  
Christina McGhee: I always recommend that parents are honest with their kids, but you want to be ‘responsibly honest’ and remember that you know, when you start talking about telling the truth, the truth is a very slippery slope, right? Because you need to remember that you know why things happened the way they did or the perspectives about the relationship or the change the divorce, there's always going to be at least two different perspectives about why things happened. 

When you think about being honest with your kids, and telling them the truth, you need to think about whose truth you're telling. So, if parents aren't sure whether they should share or not share information, I think it's important for them to ask themselves some questions. 

And those questions are, how is this information going to help my child? That's the first one. 

The second one is, how might it hurt them? How will it impact the other parent’s relationship with the children if I share this information? And I think the last important question is, am I sharing this information because my kids should know it, or because I need to tell it. A lot of times when we're talking about the truth and being honest, it's because we feel we need to justify or defend or set the record straight. Again, that kind of pulls kids into this trap of getting caught in the middle and trying to figure out who should I believe. Now that doesn't mean that if the other parent is saying things that you clearly don't agree with, you have to rollover, right? If kids are getting information from the other parent that you don't feel is factual or true, or is a distorted perspective, it's okay for you to say, well, I don't really agree with what dad said, or I have another way of looking at it than mom does. But getting down into the nitty gritty and trying to tell your side of the story, again, traps kids in the middle, because once they get that information, what do they do with it, they go check it out with your parent, right. And so, then the other parent unloads a whole new set of facts and talks more about their perspective. And then the kids have that information. And they go back, right. And they're kind of caught in this back and forth, who's been straight with me and who's not.

17:07  
New perspectives on family law. This is Confidante and Co, the podcast series from Confidante Law.

17:15 
Carly James: The questions that you pose, it's great pause for thought for parents, because by asking themselves those questions, they are shifting the mindset to make sure they're guided by what serves the children rather than what might serve a different agenda. So those questions are important.  

17:33
Christina McGhee: I think that they are - and you know, it's a tough call a lot of times, and sometimes parents also kind of distort the truth because they want to protect their kids. So sometimes parents don't want to use the word divorce. Or if parents are sleeping in separate bedrooms, they make up reasons that that's happening, oh, well, ‘Dad snores too much’, or mom has back problems, and we need to sleep in separate rooms. Well, that's not really being honest with kids. And when we're not giving kids a context for understanding how things are changing in the family, it's important for parents to understand that kids are going to make up their own stories, they're going to put things together, which often aren't based on logic or reasons, and kind of come up with their own idea about why this is happening in the family. So, with an instance like sleeping in separate bedrooms, I think it's important for parents to kind of come clean with kids and let them know that maybe they haven't made the decision to divorce. But right now, they're having problems. And they've decided to sleep apart for now, you know, maybe you need to talk to kids about the idea of separation, but you want to that's a time when you want to be appropriately honest.

18:44  
Carly James: And when the relationship is at an end and you are having that conversation with children, what are the most common concerns children have? And how should parents allay some of those fears? 

18:55  
Christina McGhee: Well, I think that there's a lot of concerns that children have, but one of the biggest ones is that kids often wonder if it's their fault. And I think it's important for parents, a lot of times parents have a hard time believing that kids would ever think that way. But really, if you think about it like a kid, it makes perfect sense. So when parents aren't getting along, and they go through the process of separation and divorce, what do they spend most of their time fighting about? Usually, it's kids, right? What the schedule is going to be? How is time going to be spent? Where's that new shirt I bought? Why did Brittany make a B in math class, you know, that's all your fault. 

And so there's just this myriad of things that parents have conflict over. And the way kids see it is all the arguments have to do with me or something about me, then it must be my fault. And that's another reason why conflict is so damaging for kids, because it can lock them into this idea that somehow, they're responsible for what's going on between parents. I think another one of the big concerns that kids Have is if mom and dad can stop loving each other does that mean someday they might stop loving me. And that's huge for kids. Because this idea of unconditional love is called into question when parents decide to divorce, right, and it makes sense. So kids need to be reassured that they are going to continue to share life with each of their parents, that the love that's shared between a parent and a child is a forever kind of love, that's not going to change, and that they're going to continue to be an important part of their lives, right, we're still going to be so the marriage ends, but the family continues, this is really important concept for kids to hear. 

And along with that, sometimes kids worry if they're going to lose parent, like, especially if there's one parent that moves out of the family home kids may really worry about the security of that relationship, and if it's going to endure if it's going to last. So, this is another reason why kids having free infrequent access, and regular and consistent contact with both parents is really critical. And then I think the last thing that's important for kids is what's the future going to look like? Right, especially for older kids, like how is this change going to impact my future. And I think that it's important for parents to really be sensitive to that.

21:17  
Carly James: And important for parents to build these concerns into their conversation, because children might not be able to articulate how they're feeling, they may not even know what they're scared of so by addressing for parents to take the lead in to address these points and give their children really clear reassurance throughout this conversation, and further conversations they have will be a really helpful takeaway for the children.

21:44  
Christina McGhee: Oh, absolutely. And, and again, it isn't a one-off conversation. Divorce is an ongoing conversation. And there will be times when parents can circle back, and they can touch on these things. But I think that the important component in terms of really staying focused on our kids is raising our level of awareness. And sometimes there are a lot of things that our kids are navigating behind the scenes that just don't make it on our parenting radar. So we really must to be vigilant about paying attention to our kids and thinking, where are there ways that we can minimise unnecessary stresses for them?

22:22  
Carly James: And just touching on the last point you made around the common concerns. So what will the future look like if parents can't reassure their children because they don't have all the answers yet? How should they deal with that?

22:32  
Christina McGhee: I think it's important for parents to know they don't have to have all the answers, right? There are going to be things that may come up that you just haven't thought of, or there may be questions that your kids ask that you're not ready or prepared to answer. And that's okay. I think what you can do is let kids know, you know, we haven't worked that out yet. We're still trying to figure that out. And when we do, you'll be the first to know, or you may want to tell kids, we really need to talk about that further. And we'll come back to you and then make sure that you do circle back with kids in a reasonable amount of time. So you want to wait days, not weeks.

23:11  
Carly James: You've given a good structure there to parents. So how to prepare individually and together what to say what not to say how to deal with difficult questions and addressing children's concerns. And I think what that does for parents who are prepared in that way is it also gives them some confidence to deal with that conversation. And if they're feeling confident, then that's going to be relayed in their messaging, and that will be received in the most positive way by the children.

23:39  
Christina McGhee: Oh, I agree. I think that's why having a plan is so important, because it helps you feel more confident going into the conversation. And it's a hard conversation to have, right? A lot of times parents don't know what to say or how to say it. So, it's important to think it through how will hearing these things impact your kids, and how can you approach it in the best way possible.

24:00  
Carly James: Moving on to the immediate aftermath and beyond. Research suggests that in the first year, it's often the toughest for children and the reasons for that are obvious because they are encountering the most amount of change. But what can parents do in the first year to limit the strain on children?

24:18  
Christina McGhee: I would say one of the most important things you can do is minimise the number of changes that your children have to deal with in that first year. And that means you know - can you keep them in the same school, the same neighbourhood, the people who are important to them in their lives like grandparents and aunts and uncles and extended family members, friends, that they still have continued contact with. If there are activities that are really important and contribute to your children's well-being then how can you continue to support that as co-parents. 

Now, when I say minimise the number of changes this doesn't mean that that's a reason to limit a parent’s time with children. Well, because you didn't normally have the kids every Thursday night, you know, we can't, we can't make that change. That's not what I'm saying. Because kids do need consistent predictable contact with each parent, but you want to, you want to think about what was life like before the breakup, and what needs to continue after because even though your relationship has changed, your children's needs have not and everything that they needed before the divorce they're going to need after the divorce. 

So really thinking about it from that perspective, how can we give our children the childhood they deserve, and the stability that they need to be happy, resilient, and secure. 

25:50
Carly James: And beyond just minimising the number of changes, is there any literature or resources you can recommend to parents to support them through this difficult parenting stage and for parents to share with the children? 

26:01
Christina McGhee: Sure, so this is going to sound a little bit like a shameless plug. But my book, parenting apart is a good resource for parents, because it's the kind of book you can dip in and dip out of, I wrote it, because I know that having the idea of reading a book is just so overwhelming when you're going through this, I intentionally wrote it so that parents could read it chapter by chapter is not necessarily an order. I recommend that parents go to the table of contents, read it through. And you know, think about which chapter really speaks to what's weighing on you right now and just read that one chapter. And then maybe down the road, there's something else that comes up, and you might dip back in to get a little bit of information there. But there's short, easy to read chapters that you can, that will help you act and make the best possible choices moving forward. 

There's also a lot of books out there for kids. And so, I always recommend, if you want to talk with your kids in a positive way about divorce are kind of develop a common language for talking about how the family is changing. Check out some books on my website, I have a list of resources, and I have some recommended books. But you can certainly check with any book retailer and read about some reviews on some books to see what other parents had to say about them, make sure that you're getting something that's developmentally appropriate for your kids. Another resource that I would highlight is a documentary film called Split, which was produced and created by my dear friend and colleague, Ellen Bruno.

Split is an excellent resource for children and parents. And it is a documentary film that shares the journey of 12 children who had parents that split up and how it impacted them. And it's a short film run times, like under 30 minutes, but it's just kids on camera, talking about how divorce really feels for them, what are some of the worries and concerns they have, and it is one of those films that is just so profound, terribly moving. And you also have, you know, these laugh out loud moments, you know, as these kids share their stories. 

I would recommend, you know, parents check it out, I want to say it's important that before you share any resource with your children, make sure that you preview it first. Because not every resource is a fit for every family. And so, it's important to figure out, is this something that's going to be a positive resource for your kids? Does it fit with your situation before you introduce your kids, and that includes split, don't just pop it on, and sit with your kids and watch it because some of the things that those kids have to say can hit you really hard as a parent, and you don't want to put your kids in a position where they're wondering if you're going to be okay, so watch it first.

28:37  
You're listening to Confidante and Co with Carly James

28:42  
Carly James: I think it's great to make those recommendations and consider dealing with the change in the family dynamic so openly like that because it creates an environment which encourages the children to speak and speak freely and openly and honestly about their feelings, frustrations, what's making them angry, sad, or even making the process easier and hearing other kids so they can relate to that that's really helpful for children in what must sometimes feel like a really lonely experience. And that environment makes for a healthy way of dealing with challenges generally, because inevitably, it will make children feel more resilient, going forward and dealing with other life challenges that come along.

29:26  
Christina McGhee: And I think that is kind of the silver lining to the dark cloud of divorce, right is that it is a hugely challenging for children and for parents. But it is also an opportunity where you can really help your kids learn some very valuable life skills, right because divorce isn't going to be the only challenging thing they're going to encounter in their lifetime. There's there will be lots of things and so this is an opportunity for you to I guess shore your kids up and let them know that while it might not feel like it right now, they can handle hard things. And you know that they are strong enough to get through this. And together we will.

30:03  
Carly James: And by accessing self-help on the internet, you know, looking at documentaries and books and reading things, it's just helping people cope with difficult times. And so if another challenge is thrown up, people will be able to look online and find things that can help them get through something.

30:21  
Christina McGhee: I think it's such an important component for all of us to know we're not alone, right. And even though divorces are very common experience for lots of families, a lot of parents feel very isolated, there still is a very persistent stigma that exists for a lot of parents, you know, feelings of guilt, or failure, or shame around this big change in what's happened in their lives. Same for kids, you know, even though there might be other kids that have families that have gone through this type of transition, there's still a lot of kids that don't feel comfortable talking about it. And so that's why I think things like split documentaries like that are so important because they can help break down that stigma, they can help change the conversation to where we look at this as a change in a family, not the end of the family. And so for anybody that's interested in taking a look at Split, you can find it at splitfilm.org.

31:18  
Carly James: And Christina, moving on to co-parenting, how would you define co-parenting?

31:23  
Christina McGhee: You know, a lot of times when parents think about co-parenting, they think about we must do everything the same, we must have the same household, we must have the same rules, we must have the same values. And that's not true. Co-parenting is more a philosophy about coming together to raise happy, secure resilient children and acknowledging that sometimes there are going to be differences between the two of you different parenting styles, different values, and allowing different to be different. But really staying focused on that. No matter how different we may be, we will always have one thing in common. And that's the love we have for our children. And so co-parenting doesn't mean you have to do everything exactly alike. But it does mean that you work hard at staying flexible at communicating with one another and supporting one another's relationship for the sake of your children.

32:21  
Carly James: And from a child's perspective, if they could ask for three outcomes, excluding reconciliation from their parents, when it comes to co-parenting, what would they be?

32:30  
Christina McGhee: I think one of the biggest would be: don't make me choose. A lot of times kids feel like they need to pick or choose between parents, they're very worried about the concept of fairness. And a lot of times parents don't realise this, especially in the early stages, parents can get very locked in into what's fair, like we need to spend 5050 time it's not fair, I don't have 50% of the holiday, and you have 50% of the holiday. And it's important to remember that what feels fair for parents doesn't always feel so great for kids. And what is a better fit for kids is being flexible, you know, really supporting children to have the best relationship they can and making those transitions easy. And a lot of kids really do worry about you know, keeping things equal, and even between parents hurting a parent’s feelings, upsetting someone making them angry. Again, we talked about kids worrying if they're going to lose a parent, you know, all those are very real issues. So really sending kids a very clear message that you don't have to pick or choose. You can love both of us as much as you want. I think the other thing that's critical for kids is to show up for me, right and make it easy for me to have both of you in my life. 

Sometimes I run into parents who don't want to see the other parent, so they don't show up to children's football games, or school plays or birthdays, because they're angry, or they're bitter, or they're hurt. And the truth is, is the thought really hurting the other parent, it's hurting your child, right? kids want it means a lot to them when parents can set aside their differences and really come together and focus on them for those special events. Because the truth is, even when your kids become adults, you're always going to be the only mom and dad they're ever going to have. And they're going to be important things that will happen in their lifetime that they're going to want both of you to be a part of. And so as much as you can do your very best to make that easy for them and conflict-free by really focusing on what your children need from you as a parent rather than your differences with your ex. And that can make the difference between co-parenting well and co-parenting badly.

I also want to add in that I realise you know that all of the listeners may not have a situation where they have a cooperative situation where they have a cooperative co parent, you yourself may be very interested in minimising the conflict and really focusing on your kid But you might not have a co parent that is, and it's Don't lose hope, you can still do a lot for your children, you can't control what the other parent does or doesn't do. But you can control how you respond, you can control how you show up for your kids, how you provide them a context for understanding what's going on, you can act and operate out of your co-parenting values, regardless of how the other parent behaves. And I will tell you that kids will fare far better if they have one stable, nurturing parent in their lives who's committed to minimising the conflict, then if they have nobody, like nobody gets it together, they have two parents that are fighting all the time, one parent can make a huge difference. So, if you're not in a situation where you have a co parent who's working with you, you can still make a very positive impact on your kids.

35:51  
Carly James: Finally, you do some fantastic work with parents and offer coaching to them. What does that consist of? So, for any of our listeners who might be interested in reaching out to you? What would coaching look like for them?

36:04  
Christina McGhee: For those parents who may be interested in working with a coach, but haven't had that experience yet, coaching is very action oriented. It's different than counselling or therapy, what I do with parents is really help them focus in on what's working and what's not working. So, with the things that are working, how do we do more of that, with the things that aren't working, less. It’s helping to gain the skills and strategies and insight that you need to get you from where you are right now to where you want to be. 

I work with parents exclusively on co-parenting issues from the very beginning stages to years down the road. So sometimes parents come to me because they are in a situation where they have an uncooperative co-parent, or their kids are struggling, and they're wanting to know how to support them in the best possible way. Other times, it may be parents that are starting out in the very beginning stages, and they want some support around how to have that beginning conversation. One of the differences between therapy and coaching is that coaching is very future focused - so ‘how do we get you to where you want to be?’ And I help parents develop a plan of action, so that at the end of a call, and I work with all parents all over the world by phone, so we both get on the phone together to mutually agreeable time. And I get very clear with him in the beginning of the call, what's the focus? What do you want to work on? And at the end of the call, given the context of what we've discussed, what are you willing to do now? What's the action you're going to take between now and the next time we talk and so really help parents kind of have a plan for moving forward.

37:48  
Carly James: Christina, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm sure you've enlightened lots of parents who are listening and given them real food for thought going forward. So, thank you for coming on. 

37:55
Christina McGhee: Oh, it's been a pleasure, Carly, thanks so much for the opportunity.

38:02  
To listen to more from the Confidante and Co series of podcasts visit confidante.law 

This service helps clients deal with issues in dispute including the division of finances, what should happen to the family home and living arrangements as well as children matters such as contact schedules and where they should live (amongst many other issues).

In the episode we discuss what clients can expect when they embark on a mediation process.  Claire and Helen explain the various measures put in place to ensure that clients feel safe and can have full confidence in the process.  

Claire also describes how rewarding it is when clients get to the end of the process and have found new ways to communicate better – great inspiration and a goal for those considering mediation.   

Useful links:

Family Mediation Jersey

Family Mediation Brochure

Agreement to Mediate
 

About Confidante and Co – the podcast series 

Clients often believe that they are resigned to the legal or court process when they are facing a separation or divorce but this is not necessarily the case.  What clients don’t always appreciate is that they have more control that they think and as long as both parties agree, they can bespoke their journey by using other services to complement the legal process.  Counselling can be used to promote a more amicable separation, Mediation can be used to help deal with issues in dispute, and there are resources and experts available to help parents co-parent better/well.   

By engaging the help of other services or resources, the cost and time it will take to navigate the legal process may be significantly reduced and there is an increased chance of keeping relationships intact.  

With that in mind, Carly James was eager to invite guests onto the series to give couples experiencing relationship breakdown a deeper insight into how their respective services can help.  We tackle common questions, debunk some myths and aim to educate listeners so they can make fully informed decisions about whether or not to engage such services.  

Whilst Carly chips in along the way with a legal perspective if she thinks it is helpful to do so, the podcast is not designed to tackle the legal process, instead it focuses on the holistic and practical side to relationship breakdown.  

Carly believes that the more couples make use of the other services available to them, the less traumatic the experience will be.    

You can find out more about Confidante here: A New Perspective on Family Law in Jersey - Confidante

Confidante and Co Episode 2 – Transcript

0:00  
This is Confidante and Co with Carly James - new perspectives on family law.

0:06  
Carly James: Welcome to the second episode in a four-part podcast series called Confidante and Co. I'm Carly James, family lawyer and founder of Confidante - a law firm specialising in family law issues such as separation, divorce, and children disputes. 

When clients come to me facing a relationship breakdown, I will always advise them about the other services and resources available to them. But clients sometimes feel reluctant to engage another service or process alongside the legal process. 

And this is sometimes due to a fear of the unknown or a misconception they have. And that's what inspired me to create a series which showcases to those experiencing relationship breakdown some of the services and resources available to them during this difficult time, which can be used to complement the legal process. 

Engaging other processes can have a myriad of potential benefits, such as a quicker, more efficient, and cost-effective legal process, promoting better relationships with former spouses or partners, and possibly even children - and helping them to reduce what is usually a very stressful journey. 

I'm delighted to introduce my guest for this episode, Helen Morgan, the manager of Family Mediation Jersey, and Claire Davies, an experienced family lawyer and mediator at the centre. 

Welcome Helen and Claire, and thank you for joining me on this series to talk about mediation, as we only have 30 minutes and lots to talk about, I thought I would break down our chat into four sections: a brief introduction, a quick-fire round of common questions I expect people have around mediation, a section aimed at dispelling myths and finishing off with more specific questions around resolving the financial aspect of a divorce, and how mediation interplays with the legal process. 

Helen, if I can start with you first, can you talk us through please, at a high level, the stages of mediation from first point of contact?

2:01  
Helen Morgan: There are various ways that we can be contacted - email, telephone website, or even through Facebook. When you first get in touch with us, what I'll do is I will discuss the process, talking about the initial meetings, I will send out a leaflet to you talking about what our service provides, I'll send you our terms and conditions and book an intake for you. That's the initial meeting that you'll have with a mediator who will talk about the process in more detail with you, then it goes on to the mediation sessions. And then as appropriate, you'll talk about financials, you may have an outcome statement or a memorandum of understanding, which are terms for the agreements that you may come to. 

And at the end of the process, there will be a feedback form to complete if you successfully complete the mediation process.

2:51  
Carly James: And how quickly can clients see a mediator?

2:54  
Helen Morgan: It's quite quick process, it’s normally within a week or two,

2:58  
Carly James: Claire, what issues can clients tackle in mediation? And what are the three most common issues you deal with?

3:05  
Claire Davies: Well, lots of different issues. In many cases, clients contact us following a decision to separate or to divorce, because they want to talk about finances or arrangements for their children. 

But we can cover all kinds of family disputes. So, we also cover intergenerational mediation, which might be a dispute between adults and their own parents. With grandparents, or it might be a dispute between parents and a much older child. And we can also mediate on issues around inheritance, anything really, that can create an argument within a family and will help you to have a meaningful conversation about that. And to hear each other's point of view. Moving on to what the most common issues are, most of our clients are coming out of a separation or divorce or going into those scenarios. And they want to explore how to resolve their finances and issues around their children, they might be worried about what should happen to the home, whether it should be sold or retained, how to divide the proceeds. Or they might need to work out a contact schedule or talk about where their children are going to live. Those are probably the most common types of dispute that we deal with. But whatever we're doing, the biggest issue is often communication. Whatever else people need to talk about, they need to improve their communication skills, so that they can remember how to solve problems together. And that really, is partly what mediation is about.

4:47  
Carly James: It's so fundamental isn't a communication between parties moving forward into the future, even if they are separating, they’re always going to have to communicate if they have children - so it's enormously helpful that parties to learn that skill with the help of mediator.

And lawyer-led mediation is an interesting concept as well. And perhaps it's something that lawyers should give a little more thought to. Because if clients are struggling to overcome an issue at mediation, introducing the lawyers and helping them to resolve at mediation could end up in a successful mediation rather than parties abandoning mediation at that point and moving to the lawyers. So having lawyers introduced into the mediation process could help that process enormously.

5:40  
Claire Davies: Oh, absolutely. Lawyers are a great resource during mediation, they can give clients advice, as the mediation is going on whether they're in the room or not. But sometimes people benefit from having the reassurance of having their lawyer with them, someone who can give them advice, and someone who is advising just them. Because a mediator can't do that, we are impartial individuals, we will work with both parties within the dispute, we can't give them advice. So, it's crucial, that they have access to that person who can’t just advise them but help to generate ideas. And that's something that's really key to mediation is generating ideas that we can work through in a practical and sensible way.

6:27
Carly James: I don't think it's probably used enough - the lawyer-led mediation - it's something that we could focus on as lawyers to help clients going forward. 

6:36  
Claire Davies: Absolutely. And it helps the lawyers too, we don't go to work every day hoping to have an argument with our colleagues. We want to sort out problems and help clients to do that. And mediation is a great way to use our skills as lawyers to achieve a resolution for people. That's what we want.

6:52  
Carly James: And I suppose when clients move away from mediation, and go and take that advice, people can have different ideas or interpret what happened at mediation for having lawyers present when they're going through that process can probably remove other problems.

7:05  
Claire Davies: Sure, it means it helps to ensure that everybody's on the same page. And whether they're in the room, if they've been involved throughout, there is less opportunity for nasty surprises. And again, as Family Lawyers as mediators, that's something we try and avoid. It doesn't help anyone. 

7:24
This is Confidante and Co - with Carly James

7:27  
Carly James: What percentage of mediations end in agreement?

7:30  
Helen Morgan: I think it's important to understand the difference between agreement and success. It's possible to have a successful mediation without having a formal agreement in place. Most of the mediations that we facilitate are successful, but don't necessarily have that formal agreement. So, the participants will agree what they want to do, how they want to move forward, but they won't necessarily document it. When they do document it, they can have it documented in an outcome statement, or they can have it documented in a memorandum of understanding, they can take that back to their lawyers as well. And their lawyers then can draft it up into a draft consent order to go before the courts for their divorce process. So, there's a multitude of ways in which a successful mediation can be completed. In addition, we may get clients who return to us because this mediation that they've had before has been successful, but things have changed, situations have moved on the children who have grown up, and they now have a new situation that they find themselves in that they now wish to mediate. So, they'll come back to us and mediate again. And we also get new clients coming to us. That's have been referred to us by previous clients, proving that their mediation was successful, too. And parents who are mediating with us choose to involve the children in the process in a child inclusive mediation, again, confirming that the mediation that they're doing is a successful mediation process.

9:06  
Carly James: It's a good point that - how you measure success, any progress that you make in mediation is a successful mediation, because it limits what you need to deal with, with the lawyers or through the courts. I think it's a good point, Helen. So, if we can move on now to a quick-fire round of common questions people may have. We haven't got very long, but I want our listeners to glean as much information as possible from you. I'm going to ask some quick questions, if that's okay, starting with you, Helen, how do you choose which mediator would be a good match for clients coming to mediation?

9:42  
Helen Morgan: All our mediators would be a good match for all our clients, because they're all trained. They're all professional mediators. So, what we're really looking at is the mediators’ availability, balancing the mediators’ workload, and most importantly, making sure there's no conflict between the mediators and the clients because we need to ensure that the mediators can facilitate and be neutral when they're doing so.

9:58
Carly James: None of your mediators are legally qualified. Should a client feel disadvantaged in any way if their mediator isn't legally qualified Helen? 

10:10
Helen Morgan: No, all mediators understand the need for fairness when they're facilitating settlements, all clients are advised to get legal advice as part of the mediation, and most certainly before agreeing anything with the other party. 

Most importantly, mediation is not a legal process. And it doesn't require legal skills. All mediators are from different backgrounds, some work in business, some in health, some with children, and some come from counselling backgrounds. Whilst we're fortunate that some do have legal knowledge, when they come in as mediators, they're wearing a different hat and working in a different way. So, they're working according to the mediation process and the mediation training when they're doing so.

10:56  
Carly James: What happens if one of the parties wants their own mediator? Is that possible?

11:01  
Helen Morgan: Yes, one of the crucial things about mediation is that the mediator is impartial. So, what we don't do is to allocate one mediator to work with one person and a different mediator to work with someone else. Because that would not fit with that central important feature of making sure that that individual is impartial and working with both parties during the mediation, having said that we do quite often travel in pairs. So, it's quite common for us to co mediate a case, particularly if it's tricky. And we'll work as a team with both clients, so we don't separate them out. What we can do sometimes is shuttle mediation. And that's where the clients for whatever reason, don't feel comfortable in the same room, where that happens, we will normally have two mediators. But again, we'll work as a team. So, we won't work separately, we'll work together to make sure that we have that unified approach to the work that we're doing.

12:05  
Carly James: Helen, what happens if one of the parties doesn't wish to attend mediation? Is it possible for mediation to go ahead?

12:21  
Helen Morgan: It's important to understand that mediation is completely voluntary, nobody is forced to take part in mediation, but all parties do have to agree to undertake mediation for it to go ahead. 

Now, when we say all parties, we do mean all parties, and that does include the mediator as well. So it may be on occasion that the mediator decides that a case isn't suitable for mediation. So, this means that we can maintain client confidentiality as well. So when, for example, I go back to a client and say, this will not be moving forward to mediation. 

Unfortunately, it may not be that the other party has said they don't want to mediate, it may be that for some reason, the mediator has identified a reason why it would not be appropriate to mediate at this time - it must be the right time for both parties. And both parties need to be willing to try and give it a go for successful mediation to take place. When both people are at this stage, then it's more likely to succeed. So it might be that another date further down the road may be better.
 
13:28  
Carly James: And I guess for some parties thinking about engaging mediation, they may be concerned about being disadvantaged. So, in fact, the fact that there is the potential to have two mediators working in tandem, or the opportunity for lawyers to attend that could alleviate some of their concerns.

13:47  
Helen Morgan: Yes, absolutely. We try to be as flexible as we can to accommodate client's needs. And that's the most important aspect. This is about the clients. This is about the client’s families. This is about the client’s issues and solutions. This is not a one size fits all process.

14:05  
New perspectives on family law. This is Confidante and Co - the podcast series from Confidante Law

14:12  
Carly James: In a situation where there's been domestic abuse in the relationship, or if one of the parties feels intimidated by the other party. How do you deal with that situation? Is mediation a suitable forum?

14:24  
Claire Davies: That's a very interesting - and tricky - question. It's important that mediation is always safe. And by that, I mean physically safe. And domestic violence is often a concern in the context of mediation, but also emotionally safe. So, we must look at different kinds of abuse where that can be present within a family situation so that we can make sure we are being safe. When we do an intake session. We ask clients for quite a lot of background information about the relationship About what difficult moments look like and what may have happened in the past, there are some cases which sadly just are not suitable for mediation, we can't make them safe. But having said that, it is important that clients can talk about some difficult stuff. And we are trained to create a level playing field to make sure that people don't feel intimidated and can say what they need to say, an important feature of mediation is feeling heard. Sometimes we can have conversations and arguments without really hearing what the other person is trying to say. And mediation is about facilitating a proper conversation where people listen to each other. And there are things that we can do to make sure that people do feel safe. So, we can try shuttle mediation, for example. Or we can encourage people to have always present or we can co mediate, so have more than one mediator there. There are lots of things we can do to create that safe space for people to say what they need to say, and to be heard.

16:08  
Carly James: And I think that's really important information that you've just shared, Claire, and important for Family Lawyers to know that that's the position as well, because I think sometimes Family Lawyers may advise their clients that it might not be suitable for them to go to mediation if there has been domestic abuse. So it's great for Family Lawyers to know that it's an absolute priority that they fee is present, and that the mediators are looking at all sorts of ways to roll out that mediation in a way that's going to fit the parties.

16:39  
Claire Davies: Absolutely, because to be truly voluntary and mediation must, everybody has got to be able to take part in it in a meaningful and confident way. So if mediation can be made safe in a difficult scenario, that's great. But there are cases where we simply can't do it. And every case is risk assessed when people come to see us.

17:02  
Carly James: And what about if there is an issue involving the children or a child? Is it possible for the child to attend mediation? And if so, in what circumstances? Would that usually happen?

17:15  
Claire Davies: The short answer is yes - children can be involved in mediation, but not necessarily in the way that people think. So, you can have what's known as ‘child-inclusive mediation’ with a specially trained mediator. The child won't be in the room with their parents trying to resolve an argument over where they spend their time, or who they live with. But the mediator will have a separate meeting with the child where the child will have the opportunity to express their feelings and to agree with the mediator, what can be fed back to their parents, it's important to understand that we don't make the child the decision maker. When it comes to mediation, it is parents who make decisions for their children. But we're all better informed in making decisions for our kids, when we understand and have a bit more insight into what's important for them. 

So, we might well be feeding back to parents that it's important to this child that they get to school on time every day. Or it's important to a different child that they have the right kit, or that another child needs to have its pet close by when it's spending time with its parents. So we don't ask children to choose which parent they're going to live with. That's not the role of child inclusive mediation. But we do enable children to have a voice and to express their feelings in a way that might be useful to their parents. Crucially, however, most of the work is done with the parents. So before will talk to a child and child inclusive mediation, we spend time with the parents to prepare them for it, and to make sure that it's suitable for them. And we'll also spend time with them afterwards to make sure that any information provided by the child is used in a constructive way. 

Mediation, child-inclusive or otherwise, should never make things worse. The idea is that involving children should help parents to resolve disputes in a constructive and meaningful way. But without putting any pressure on the child. Not every case is suitable for child inclusive mediation. There are cases where there are allegations or concerns that might mean it's just not safe for the child or the child may be put under pressure. That's not what this is about. But it is a means for parents to gain some more information about what's important to their kids and children must be a particular age to come to mediation, they must be old enough, which isn't to say that there's a firm cut-off point because all children are different. If perhaps Particularly suits older children, a lot of child inclusive mediations work with teenagers, for example, but it can work very well with younger children if they feel able to be comfortable as part of that process. But we wouldn't involve a baby, if I can put it that way, because it wouldn't be fair on them. And it probably wouldn't be constructive.

20:20  
Carly James: What happens when an agreement is reached?  

20:23  
Claire Davies: In mediation a variety of things can happen. Sometimes the mediator will just note the agreement that's been reached in effectively a mediation summary and clause will be used to getting those summaries every time they attend a session where an agreement has been reached in relation to finances, we tend to produce something called a memorandum of understanding, which is quite a detailed document, which sets out the core facts but also the agreement that the parties have reached in a way that hopefully is helpful to their lawyers to them formalised into a legally binding document quite often a court order with that will prepare an open financial statement, which is a statement, which again, is hopefully helpful to the lawyers, it will set out exactly what the parties assets are, and where we have that information, what their income and expenditure looks like. So that's how things will be documented within mediation itself, those agreements are not binding, we advise people then to go to their lawyers to take some additional advice. And their lawyers, we'll turn that agreement into something that's legally binding. Importantly, nothing that you discuss in mediation should find its way into court bundles, or into any form of litigation. The reason for that is that it's really important that people are free to say what they need to say mediation without the fear of it coming back to bite them at a later stage, which is why we ask clients when they come to sign a mediation agreement, and why we impress on them the importance of confidentiality, that's to safeguard them, and to ensure that mediation is a safe and constructive process, where they can say what they need to say.

22:11  
Carly James: And you make a really important point about seeking legal advice. And it's key, the timing of that legal advice, because parties have been through the mediation process, and they sign the memorandum of understanding. And then they go and get legal advice that can sometimes be quite problematic if they're hearing advice for the first time. And they're not happy with the agreement they have signed, and in that situation that can cause the huge amount of resentment and anger and frustration for the other person. So, it's important for parties to understand the benefit of receiving that legal advice early in the mediation process, or at least after the disclosure process, because then they can weave that legal advice into negotiations. And they will know them when they're signing the agreement that they have covered everything they need to and they're not hearing that legal advice after agreement has been reached.

23:09  
Claire Davies: What we don't want to do is to find new and interesting ways of generating conflict. And there’s nothing creates conflict better than a breakdown in something you think you've agreed.  And if they do have worries, we can cover those at an early stage. Absolutely get them out in the open, talk about them, resolve them, and the documenting of an agreement by a lawyer should really be a formality. Absolutely a drawing together of what's already been agreed in a format and using language that a court can reliably approve; it shouldn't be a nasty surprise. And it certainly shouldn't be a disaster.

23:53  
Carly James: So how many sessions does it usually take to reach agreement about the finances?

23:59  
Claire Davies: Gosh, it really varies. That's partly because some people like to have quite short sessions. And some clients like to have longer ones, although we try to encourage people not to go on for too long, because it becomes counterproductive, I would say typically is perhaps five or six sessions. But I have had clients who've gone on mediating for far longer than that often in a very kind and focused way because they don't want to put themselves under too much pressure. So, I don't think it's a ‘one size fits all’ scenario. It really does vary. But it's often a great deal quicker, and a great deal cheaper, than fighting it out in court.

24:44 
Carly James: Helen, that leads us on neatly to my next question, how much does mediation cost?

24:50  
Helen Morgan: Well as a charity we offer means-testing for all of our clients. And that means most of our clients do pay reduced fees. And in fact, a third of our clients don't pay anything at all, where these are charged, they're charged by the session. They're not charged by the minute or the hour, or the unit, or any of these other charging terms that you hear in law firms and things like that. So, what you'll get for the session charges that you are charged is the 60 to 90 minute mediation session. And all phone calls, emails, summaries, agreements, anything that you need, will come under that one charge that you get for each session that you come to. And in fact, the first meeting that you come to your first initial session to see if mediation is suitable for you and your circumstances, there's no charge for anybody for that one at all. So, it's always worth coming along to us to have that discussion to find out if it's suitable for you to come along to mediation.

25:51  
Carly James: So, it really is a much more cost-effective process. And based on the average number of sessions, you can really canter through that process quite quickly and resolve the issues quickly.

26:03  
Helen Morgan: Absolutely. It can be much, much quicker, much more cost effective than taking it through the court process first.

26:10  
Carly James: I’d like to move on to deal with some myths around mediation. I think lots of people have preconceived ideas around what mediation looks like and what the process involves. They've maybe heard from friends who've been through the process - and some of those myths may put people off going through mediation, so if we can, I would like to try and debunk as many of those myths as possible. So Claire - mediators may be biased against me because my spouse has portrayed me in a bad light. What would you say about that myth?

26:46  
Claire Davies: Oh, well, mediators are professional and trained to be impartial. So, it's very important to us, actually, that we don't take sides and that we never judge people. That's not what we're there to do. We're there to try to help people to resolve the problems that they have. And to reach a good outcome. If a client ever during a mediation has a concern that they think we're not impartial, or that they're feeling judged. We encourage them to raise that as an issue. So that we can deal with it is very common for clients to be worried about what their ex has said about them or what their ex is saying about them in the room. But having that level playing field is very important. And as we know, as Family Lawyers, Carly, what our clients say about each other in terms of their deficiencies is rarely if ever relevant to how they resolve their matrimonial financial or children-related disputes. So, we try to keep people on track, but reassure them that we're not there to judge them.

27:52  
Carly James: That’s helpful. Helen, ‘mediation isn't appropriate as I need something legally binding.’ What would you say to that?

28:00  
Helen Morgan: Simply that mediation can be undertaken as part of the legal process, and courts and lawyers often do refer couples to mediation, lawyers can refer when clients are stuck on issues or specific decisions that need to be made. And once agreement has been reached, this can then be taken back to the lawyers to draw up legally binding agreements.

28:19  
You're listening to Confidante and Co with Carly James.

28:23  
Carly James: Claire, what would you say to somebody who felt that their legal rights wouldn't be protected if they were to mediate? 

28:30  
Claire Davies:  Well, I think that's about exploring what people's concerns are. Because I think it's important that people have confidence in mediation, before they start, and important to think about what rights it is they're concerned about. We do encourage clients to have legal advice throughout the mediation process. We encourage them to think about the issues around confidentiality and the importance of it, we make sure that people understand things that are talked about in mediation shouldn't then be used in court documents, or in a way that can be used against them We do that to encourage them to have some confidence in the fact that is not about undermining their legal rights. Mediation is about finding solutions to problems that can then be turned into legally protected and binding agreements - it's not about catching people out.

29:24  
Carly James: I think, again, it's important that people understand the legal process can be used in tandem with mediation, though if anyone does have any concerns about their legal rights, then they are at liberty to take legal advice at any point during that process or to stop that process.

29:39  
Claire Davies: Absolutely. And they will be encouraged to take legal advice. In most sessions that people have, we will have a chat with them and to make sure they understand the importance of doing that.

29:50
Carly James: And Claire: if people think that they are just so far apart, that it's going to be a waste of time and money to go through mediation what would you say to them?

29:59  
Claire Davies: Oh, I would say that mediation is never a waste of time ever, because couples that come into mediation or family members that come into mediation have nothing to lose.

At the very least, they will get a better understanding of each other and about each other's positions. It's not uncommon for people coming into mediation to think that they are miles apart. And the process of mediation gradually brings people closer together, because they understand each other's point of view, because we talk about the issues, because we sense check a lot of people's ideas and thoughts. And because we start to get to the bottom of what is important, and why it's important, it's about reminding people that they have the skills to solve these problems together. And what they need to do is to communicate and to understand better each other’s point of view, and priorities. And it doesn’t matter how far apart you are, you can become closer because of the mediation process.

31:01  
Carly James: And you're right. And unless parties are prepared, just to throw their case to the court, they're going to have to communicate one way or another. And it's about choosing the forum. So, either they do that with the help of their lawyers through the legal process or embarking on the mediation process and trying to narrow the gap, if not close it entirely.

31:20  
Claire Davies: Absolutely. And it is not preferable for most people to leave the most important decisions in their life - about their children or about their money - to a judge they've never met before. It's a massive risk. And one of the advantages of mediation is that it gives you control over your own future, the ability to generate proposals to discuss them to reach your own agreements, in a way that's far more beneficial than ending up in a courtroom. Of course, courts are always there. And there are some people that can't agree. And that's fine. But even for those clients who do end up in court, hopefully they have benefited from the time that they've spent in mediation.

32:01  
Carly James: Family Lawyers will always advise clients, that court really is the last resort. There are so many methods to try and resolve a case without going through the court process, which is incredibly stressful, and enormously expensive. 

Helen, ‘mediation isn't an option because court proceedings are underway’ Would you say that's accurate?

32:22  
Helen Morgan: Definitely not - court proceedings are often underway when people are coming to us for mediation, the courts often refer people to us for mediation, when they've appeared before the courts, it's always possible to postpone court dates as well, if need be, if you're going through the mediation process. It's more cost-effective in many cases, then go into court repeatedly with your lawyers. And as Claire has said, it keeps control in your own hands, it can often be a quicker process than having a word long wait for court dates as well. So, whilst you may have started the court process, it's always still worth thinking about coming to mediation and trying to attempt to resolve these things yourselves to keep control and to speed up and reduce the cost of the process.

33:05  
Carly James: Thank you. Claire – ‘parties have tried mediation before, but it didn't work. And they thought that it wouldn't work on this occasion’. What would you say to them?

33:13  
Claire Davies: Oh, I'd say it's always worth giving it a go in the sense that again, you have nothing to lose. Sometimes people try mediation when they're not quite ready, people must be in the right sort of stage of the process, psychologically, to really engage with it. And circumstances change. Sometimes people need to be a little bit further down the road before they're ready for it. But just because it's failed before does not mean it's going to fail this time.

33:38  
Carly James: And what about for couples who are wealthy, they may consider that mediation is aimed at people who haven't really got much money and mediation wouldn't be suitable for them. What would you say to that, Claire?

33:51  
Claire Davies:  Well, I would say that mediation is for everybody. We mediate with high net worth couples who may have a great deal of money. But at the end of the day, they still need to communicate better, they still need to try to reach answers in relation to their finances that make sense for them, and for their families. And for their children. The amount of money that you have does not necessarily mean that resolving your finances is more complicated than it would be for someone who doesn't have much money. In fact, the reverse is often true. So, I would encourage people not to think in that way, and to understand that the service can benefit everybody, no matter what their financial situation or their role in life.

34:34  
Carly James: In the next section, I would like to delve a little deeper into mediation focused on helping parties to divide their finances. So do clients have to go through a financial disclosure process in mediation, Claire?

34:46  
Claire Davies: Yes, they do. We ask clients when they first come to mediation to complete a financial pack. That's if they're discussing finances rather than children, and they'll have to provide not just information but also the documentation to back that up, it's an important part of our process, so that they can have confidence in the discussions that they're having. And in the agreements that they've reached is also important for sense checking because there's no point having discussions about your money, if you’re just plucking figures out of the air, because those agreements in practice won't work.  It's very important, just as when you're going to lawyers, that you have that essential financial information behind you, having said that, our forms are a little simpler than the lawyers might use a little simpler in terms of process than the courts might use if people are engaged in litigation, but that central information must be there.

35:46  
Carly James: I think that's a real worry for some people that they're going to go through the mediation process, and their spouse might not be honest, or they might not provide full information during that process. So, it's great to know that those financial processes are there, that it's structured, that people have to have evidence, their financial circumstances. And I suppose for anybody who's really concerned about their spouse not providing full information, potentially, they could go through the process with the benefit of lawyers and go through the financial disclosure process that way, and then take that information to mediation. So, they've got the comfort that they've been through the process legally, but then they still can benefit from negotiating a settlement or discussing their finances in the mediation forum.

36:32  
Claire Davies: Sure, we would always, as part of our process, look at the figures, even if lawyers have already done that. And that's partly because the process of working through the figures together in mediation as an important part of starting to gather ideas, make proposals and hopefully achieve a settlement. So, working with numbers and making sure that there is confidence in them is very important to the process itself. And we encourage people to ask questions of each other. So, if clients have concerns about whether someone is telling porkies in terms of their expenditure, we encourage those questions to be asked and aired. And we reality check everything. If, for example, somebody is saying that they only spend two pounds 50 a week on food, we're probably going to ask them to think about whether that's accurate or not. Jersey being jersey, it's unlikely. So hopefully, mediation provides a safe and respectful forum, to look in detail at financial information, and to make sure that everything adds up. And that's all part of having that confidence in the process.

37:42  
Carly James: Once you've gathered the information, and both of the parties are happy with the disclosure, how do you then help clients decide on the division? What's the process that you go through? And do you encourage parties to get there themselves? Or do you make suggestions as to how parties might deal with their finances,

38:03  
Claire Davies: It's always a tricky one for a mediator, perhaps particularly one who's a lawyer not to be too directive in the way that the mediation unfolds. All mediators’ training includes some understanding of legal concepts, even if we're not lawyers. But the first thing that we do, once we've been through that financial disclosure is to look as a group at what the assets are, and how money is being spent. And as I say, that's really to start to help people talk about what's important to them, and to start to think about what the options are. And that then encourages the parties to generate proposals quite often, they will have discussed that with their lawyer as well, then when we've got proposals out there, we can start to talk about them to get people's views on them, and to identify where the sticking points are. And before you know it, people have started to move together in the same direction, almost without realising it. And quite often, they'll start to realise the problems with their own proposals. And they'll start to fix those problem areas without us having to have too much of an input. But it's useful for people to generate their own ideas and their own agreements. Because if they do that, those agreements stick, they don't fall apart in five, ten or fifteen years later,

39:22  
Carly James: It must be the most rewarding part of the role for a mediator to be parties coming together and coming up with ideas and reaching that agreement themselves. 

39:32  
Claire Davies: Absolutely. The most rewarding point really of a mediation is that point at which your clients remember that they can solve problems together just as they did every day as a couple. And they remember that they’ve got this, and they can do this in a way that's going to benefit them, their children, and in a way that will be with them for the rest of their lives. They may be in a position where they will both be able to go to their child's wedding or they will be able to resolve problems as they come up in future, because they've recovered the skills, they needed to do that.

To listen to more from the Confidante and Co series of podcasts visit confidante.law 

People often have preconceived ideas about relationship counselling and Pippa helps to debunk some of those myths; hopefully leaving listeners feeling a little more optimistic and open minded about giving counselling a go!   

Useful links:

Relate Jersey

Funding for counselling for those who work or have worked in various industries (worth a look!)
 

Transcript

This is Confidante and Co with Carly James - new perspectives on family law.

Carly James:  Welcome to the first episode in a four-part podcast series called Confidante and Co. 

I'm Carly James, family lawyer and founder of Confidante - a law firm specialising in family law issues such as separation, divorce, and children disputes. 

When clients come to me facing a relationship breakdown, I always advise them about the other services and resources available to them. 

But clients sometimes feel reluctant to engage another service or process alongside the legal process. And this is sometimes due to a fear of the unknown or a misconception they have. And that force inspires me to create a series which showcases to those experiencing relationship breakdown some of the services and resources available to them during this difficult time, which can be used to complement the legal process. 

Engaging other processes can have a myriad of potential benefits, it can support a quicker, more efficient, and cost-effective legal process. It can promote better relationships with former partners or spouses and possibly even the children and it can help to reduce what is usually a very stressful journey. So without further ado, I would like to introduce my first handpicked guest, a relationship counsellor from Relate, Pippa Wood 

Welcome, Pippa. And thank you for joining me on the series.

1:26  
Pippa Wood: Thanks for having me. It's great to be on your podcast to give people an insight into relationship counselling and how it may help them.

1:34  
Carly James: The theme of this series is aimed predominantly at helping people who've decided that their relationship is at an end. 

And what some people may not know is that relationship counsellors can also help couples separate amicably. So, I'd like to focus on both aspects of your work Pippa today. And before we delve into the specifics of counselling, I'd love to know a little bit more about you relate and counselling post COVID. So, Pippa Why did you decide to specialise in relationship counselling as opposed to general counselling?

2:08  
Pippa Wood: Well, I've always had an interest in relationships, I think they're so important in life. And that's not just the intimate relationships, but relationships with parents and friends and work colleagues. I really enjoy the general counselling. But the relationship counselling I find fascinating. It's challenging, I would say it's one of the most challenging forms of therapy, but just having the dynamics of two people in the room with their personal histories and looking under the surface of what's really happening in their relationship is interesting. And I feel very privileged to do what I do for a job.

2:51  
Carly James: And you're right, relationships are integral to every aspect of our life. And we particularly know that when relationships start to break down because they can have far reaching consequences that can affect our work and it can affect other relationships that can affect our health and well-being to the really is an important aspect of our general lives. Definitely. Yeah, so PIP awards, would you say the differences are between a relate qualified counsellor and a general relationship counsellor,

3:22  
Pippa Wood: Sometimes you do get general counsellors seeing couples, but my view is that it really is a speciality and relate is the biggest company in the UK that specialises in relationship therapy, and it's been going for 80 years. So, there's a lot of experience and they use different modalities. And the training is quite specialised. So, I think relationship counselling is very different to regular counselling. And I think related, they're an excellent company to go to for relationship therapy.

3:57  
Carly James: But in your opinion, how has COVID impacted or changed relationship counselling?

4:03  
Pippa Wood: Well, it has polarised the world generally. But in relationships, it seems to have had this impact where it's gone from either people splitting up and getting divorced or people kind of getting married and having babies - it's kind of accelerated it either way, obviously, you've got the risk of domestic abuse getting worse when people are in close proximity to each other for a long period of time. 

And that can be the downside to COVID. But there's also an upside to it. I've seen people really kind of working on their relationships, spending time with their family reconnecting. I think that's one of the best things that's come out of COVID.

4:48  
Carly James: And it's interesting to hear your perception of people's relationships and that there have been some positive impacts - because I think we've become so used to hearing bad press around divorce rates increasing and domestic violence - so it’s great that you have some couples improving issues in their relationships.

5:11  
Pippa Wood: Definitely, it's given them the time to really focus on their relationships. I think there's been some benefits to this time together and with the family as well.

5:21  
This is Confidante and Co with Carly James

5:25  
Carly James: To help as many people as we can, I thought we could do a quickfire round of common questions people considering relationship counselling may have.

In your experience, what are the most common reasons for relationship breakdown?

5:40  
Pippa Wood: The most common reason would be poor communication. Communication is key to a successful relationship. But people can also have behaviours and interactions with each other. These can be being defensive with each other stonewalling criticism and contempt. So those are the four kind of main reasons that a relationship really breaks down

6:03  
Carly James: Affairs are a common reason for relationship breakdown, and they are inevitably incredibly painful and difficult to overcome. And I think our general perception of an affair is that if it isn't dealt with properly within the relationship, and genuinely forgiven, it can fester and cause even bigger problems. So I suppose there are two parts to this question Pippa: the first is - do you agree with that perception? And secondly, do you think it's possible for a couple to deal with the affair privately between themselves? Or do you think it's important for couples to get relationship counselling at that point?

6:45  
Pippa Wood: Infidelity is very common amongst relationships, and it's important to kind of ‘work through’ the affair. 

People often try and deal with it themselves or they talk to their friends, but they won't necessarily get the right advice. 

And you know, nowadays, the shame is to stay with the person, whereas in the past, it was to leave. People are more reluctant to talk about the affair for a start, and really process it. So, then it can sit there as resentment, which can come up in arguments later on. It's much more important to really deal with it and process it. And the best way to do it is through therapy. 

Relationship counselling can really help support the couple this difficult time. And it is like a grieving process that they must go through. You know, it's difficult for both parties, because one is grieving, and the other is feeling difficult emotions like guilt and shame. So, working through that together is tough. But once they've worked through it, it can make the relationship much stronger and more resilient.

8:14  
Carly James: And another common issue in relationships is the introduction of children into people's lives, which can unexpectedly upset the equilibrium of a relationship. And it's not uncommon that different parenting styles can cause a lot of conflict or internal frustration, which can act as a catalyst for the breakdown of a relationship. Do you see many parents struggling in this way? And if so, how can you help parents who are probably feeling desperate?

8:44  
Pippa Wood: This is a very common time to come to therapy because it's a challenging time for couples. It changes the dynamic, having a baby, because it's no longer just a couple. And it happens before the baby arrives, you know that the pregnancy can be difficult, and, there can be trauma in the birth. 

So, it's a challenging time for a couple. Not only that, but you also have other external factors. Usually around that time, work can be stressful, and finances can be challenging. 

And it is a difficult time. I think therapy is good because talking through with a therapist can normalise those feelings. It is a time that is difficult for couples, but also for the couple to hear each other's experience of what they're going through and really listening to each other. When we're tired and stressed we can be quite defensive with each other. So just having that safe space to talk about how they're feeling to the other person to really listen can be beneficial for the couple

9:52  
Carly James: I think communication is so key. Even if the parties have decided that their relationship is at an end. Inevitably they have things that they need. to sort out afterwards, it might be the finances or co-parenting or both. Getting better at communicating with one another is essential, I think, to managing their relationship going forward.

10:12  
New perspectives on family law, this is Confidante and Co, the podcast series from Confidante Law

10:19  
Carly James: When would you say is the best time to get relationship counselling? I think this is a this is an issue for lots of people because I think that sometimes people worry that the issues in their relationship aren't bad enough to get counselling. Or to the contrary, people think that the relationship has broken down so far that they can't recover. And relationship counselling isn't going to be beneficial for them. So, when would you say is the optimum time to get relationship counselling?

10:45  
Pippa Wood: I would say any time, but the earlier you do it, and the younger you do it, the better. Because the more knowledge you have of yourself and your partner, the more likely the relationship will be successful, I think at the start of the relationship really.

11:03  
Carly James: And that's quite an interesting concept. Because I suppose people don't even consider relationship counselling at the start of their relationship when things are possibly going well. And they're not thinking about a time when their relationship may be put under pressure, because challenges happen in all our lives. And that can have an impact on the relationship. So, I suppose being proactive and having those tools in place to deal with difficult times. And the relationship puts people in a much better position to overcome those problems. And I suppose if people have engaged relationship counselling at a positive stage in their relationship, they're more likely to go back to relationship counselling to get that support when things start to break down.

11:48  
Pippa Wood: Definitely. And I think it's a difficult one, because quite often they come to relate when things are crisis stage where things have really kind of broken down, and it's a last resort. So, you’re kind of working in that mode. Whereas I think if people come in when they're good and study, then you can do some good work as well. If you can get prepared and really get to know each other well through therapy, then you're going to reduce the risk of falling into some of these negative patterns.

12:19  
Carly James: And if parties come to see you, and they're dealing with an issue, what would you say the three main ingredients required to support a successful outcome,

12:30  
Pippa Wood: I would say, empathic witnessing, so really listening to the partner, and understanding them. Understanding is one and getting knowledge on how they are, why they are the way they are having that understanding, and then really change, you know, making that making changes, I'd say they're the three most important.

12:52  
Carly James: What if one person wants to attend relationship counselling, but they can't persuade their partner to come along with their partners refusing? Is it possible to move forward with relationship counselling? In that instance?

13:03
Pippa Wood: Yeah, that happens. Sometimes we'll just see one partner, we can see them for a couple of sessions, we can then see them together as a couple, but any more than that, then it becomes bias. And we do let them know, if you want to continue with the individual therapy, then you can't have the couples therapy with the same therapist. But it can really help just one-party attending therapy can really help with a couple.

13:30  
Carly James: And what relationship counselling be suitable if there has been domestic abuse in the relationship or is ongoing domestic abuse in the relationship?

13:39  
Pippa Wood: No, that's not something that we work with – in fact, working on the relationship if there is domestic abuse can be more harmful than good. So, we support them, but we can't do the relationship therapy.

13:53  
Carly James: What is the average number of counselling sessions?

13:56  
Pippa Wood:  I would say the average is between 12 and 18. We normally say come in, we'll do six sessions, and then we'll re-evaluate on the sixth session. But really, it takes four sessions to build up a therapeutic relationship and trust. So, I'd say around 12, I'd say around session eight, the work really begins.

14:17  
Carly James: And would clients come weekly or fortnightly? So how long if they were looking at sort of having 12 to 18 sessions? How long would that take?

14:25  
Pippa Wood: Ideally, they'd come weekly, usually at the same time, although then some couples can't do that. So, it might be every two weeks, but we'd like to try and keep it every week if we can. And then sometimes towards the end, they're reluctant to finish the therapy. We can also do a review after a month and see how they're getting on. And obviously the door's always open, should they want to return

14:47  
Carly James: And do you give couples homework to work on in the intervening periods?

14:52  
Pippa Wood: Yes, we do. We've got tools that they can take home - communication tools, and I quite often send podcasts And I will recommend books. Some couples love tools, other couples aren't so keen and don't really want to. So, it really depends on the couple and the way that they would like to work.

15:10  
Carly James: I suppose the parties are more likely to be successful if they implement some of that homework, though, because it's all well and good hearing the advice, but actually implementing it that's likely to make changes going forward.

15:24  
Pippa Wood: I think it's always good if couples kind of continue the good work out of the room, but a lot of the work is done in the room as well. So the homework is an extra and it helps to support them. But yeah, the work is done in the room. And it's really looking at what's going on underneath the surface.

15:45  
Carly James: What percentage of couples managed to work through their difficulties during couples counselling?

15:51  
Pippa Wood: I would say most I would say 80 or 90% kind of work through their issues. Some couples stay together, some don't. But our aim is for them to leave feeling happier and more secure. That's our priority really.

16:05  
Carly James: And what's the cost of relationship counselling?

16:08  
Pippa Wood: For Relate, it’s £60 pounds for an hour. And then it's £70 for PST and psychosexual, but we also have charities that support the therapy as well. So you can look online under the National contracts on the charity Relate website for information you need on funding, 

16:21
Carly James: That’s great for people who may be struggling financially now. And they may be put off by the cost of relate to know that there's potentially some support out there or that relate could reduce their fee that's enormously helpful for people I'm sure,

16:42  
You're listening to Confidante and Co with Carly James

16:46  
Carly James: There are lots of myths and misconceptions around relationship counselling, people seem to have an image of the types of people who engage in relationship counselling, an image of counsellors, the counselling room, and the format, I suspect that the reality is quite different. I thought it might be quite useful to tackle some of those myths with a view to debunking as many of them as we can.

Myth number one: counsellors just sit there, nod and stay silent, what would you say about that Pippa?

17:17  
Pippa Wood: That's definitely not the case, there's a lot of work that goes into the therapy, the relationship counsellor is really there to kind of support but really, you're looking at the personal history of the clients and helping them to understand themselves and support them. And you're looking at the negative cycles that they may be in, there's tools that you use in the room, there's a lot of work that goes into the therapy, if you were just to sit there in relationship therapy, the couple could just argue, and that could be more harmful than good.

17:53  
Carly James: And it's interesting to hear that you deal with the history and to deal with attachment. Because I'm sure for some people, it's helpful, even if they don't resolve their issues for them that relationship to acknowledge and to recognise maybe some traits that they bring forward that that will help them to have healthier relationships in the future if they can acknowledge their role in in a relationship breakdown. Yeah, definitely. 

Myth number two: going to couples’ therapy means ‘I am weak, and I have failed in my relationship.’

18:26  
Pippa Wood: Yeah, this is such a shame that people feel this way. Because really, it's a strength, it's the opposite to weakness. It's strong to be able to go and speak to somebody that you don't know about your feelings and your emotions and be vulnerable. And I think, you know, it should be seen as a good thing. And something that should be respected.

18:48  
Carly James: Myth number three: everyone will know I'm seeing a counsellor. And I guess that fear is amplified in Jersey because we're a smaller community. And there's a sense that no one has any secrets in Jersey counselling is obviously confidential, isn't it?

19:03  
Pippa Wood: Counselling at related in Jersey is completely confidential. So, nobody will know that you're having therapy, the entrance to the office is very discreet, we space the clients out, so it's very unlikely for anybody to bump into each other. And, we do a lot of therapy online as well. So, people can do it from the comfort of their own home.

19:31  
Carly James: And online counselling is a new thing for Relate. And that has been offered post-COVID. So that's another real positive to come out of COVID. And I think that it's a valuable service to offer parties, not just because of COVID. But just going forward generally, I think that there is a reluctance for people to go along to a relationship counsellor’s office and it feels easier to do it in the comfort of your own home.

19:57  
Pippa Wood: Yeah, definitely. I think it's so amazing that people can access therapy can so easily, like you say not have to go out and have that anxiety of going somewhere that they don't know and be in the comfort of their own home. It's great.

20:12  
Carly James: Myth number four: couples counselling always makes one person the villain. Is that true Pippa?

20:19  
Pippa Wood: I think people are afraid that that could be the case. And it's not the case. Therapists aren't there to judge. They're there to facilitate and support the couple. And quite often, if there is a client that is particularly challenging, we really look beneath the surface, because quite often, there can be pain and sadness. So yeah, we would never make one person the villain. 

20:48  
Carly James: And in contrast to the myth that counsellors just sit there and nod, some people may have a misconception that the therapist might tell a couple to break up?

20:58  
Pippa Wood: The therapist wouldn't tell a couple to break up, the therapist is there to support them through their journey. And at the end, they may separate, or they may work through their issues and stay together. But it really isn't the counsellors to tell the client what to do.

21:18  
Carly James: So, or those who'd written off counselling, hopefully some of those answers provided by Pippa will give a more accurate and optimistic view of counselling. But for those who are unquestionably at the end of their relationship, the next section of this podcast is aimed at helping them to understand what the process might look like if they wanted to engage counselling to separate amicably. Pippa - for those who have decided that the relationship is at an end, how can you help them?

21:47  
Pippa Wood: If the relationship is at an end, then you can still do the work to understand why the relationship broke down so that the relationship is healthy can have going forward? Having a better understanding, having that empathic witnessing of each other. And if there's children involved, then I think it's beneficial that that relationship continues on kind of a healthy journey.

22:11  
Carly James: And what are the most common fears people have who are facing a relationship breakdown? And how can counselling allay some of those fears?

22:19  
Pippa Wood: I think the biggest fear is that there's going to be conflict, especially if there's children involved. And I think just having that that person there that they can talk about their emotions, and how they're feeling is important.

22:34  
Carly James: What would you say is the difference between counselling when parties have decided that their relationship is at an end and mediation, because I think sometimes people can be confused about the two and whether both can go in tandem?

22:49  
Pippa Wood: I think the relationship counselling is more looking at the emotional experiences and the feelings and supporting them in that respect. I think mediation is kind of more for the looking at the finances and making decisions on the housing assets. So, I think they go very well together, I recommend mediation a lot. And I think, you know, ideally, you'd have the relationship therapy, mediation, and then the legal side. So, the client has the support all the way through.

23:21  
Carly James: And I think that's the benefit of this podcast series- it's highlighting to people that there are several services available. And people can pretty much bespoke their journey. So there is maybe a particular aspect or aspects that they can draw from all of the services and pull all of those benefits together to enhance their journey and experience and deal with their relationship breakdown to get them to a point where they can move forward with their lives. So having couples’ counselling, to deal with the communication side, to have mediation to help them with negotiations, and to have that legal advice as well to know that the outcome they are reaching is reasonable. Can people engage relate just for post separation counselling? Or do you only offer that service for clients who've been to see for couples counselling?

24:11  
Pippa Wood: No, they can come at any stage. They don't have to have been for therapy, and it's better late than never.

24:18  
Carly James: And is there anything else you think we should know about relationship counselling that we've not covered?

24:26  
Pippa Wood: I would say: try therapy to anybody that hasn't had counselling, because I think the more you can learn about yourself, and the more you can learn about your partner, the better the richer your life will be. And yeah, and I feel very fortunate to be doing the job that I do. And it's incredibly interesting.

24:49  
Carly James: Pippa. Thank you so much for coming on the series. It's been incredibly informative, and I'm sure our listeners will benefit from the content you've shared today. 

24:59
Pippa Wood: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

25:01  
To listen to more from the Confidante and Co series of podcasts visit confidante.law